Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Semi-Tarrasch (Read 36662 times)
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #27 - 11/20/06 at 05:18:06
Post Tools
the Grunfeld is probably a better opening because of king safety. As for Semi-Tarrasch ... well I don't wish to play a whole game calculating sacrifices on my kingside! (which will be the case whether White chooses 6. e3 or 6. e4).
Also Bg7 goes nicely with ...c5 , but I'm not sure if Black can play ...f5 anytime soon after Bb7.

But the Semi-Tarrasch, like the Ragozin, is having a mini-revival, if only because Black does not equalise after 5.Bf4 and the QGD Vienna.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #26 - 11/19/06 at 22:57:17
Post Tools
I was flicking through an old source this weekend, Burgess & Pedersen's Queen's Gambit for the Attacking Player, and was struck by their suggestion that the Semi-Tarrasch was a cross between the Tarrasch and the Grunfeld.  The Tarrasch connection makes plenty of sense if only in name and the early advance of the c-pawn, but I had never thought of the relationship between the Semi-Tarrasch and the Grunfeld before.  Burgess & Pedersen suggest that Black often has to cope with White's large pawn center in both openings, which is fair enough, but never having really investigated the Grunfeld, I hadn't appreciated that there might be similarities worth studying here.  Has anyone worked on both the Grunfeld and the Semi-Tarrasch?  Are there relevant themes that cross over from one opening to the other?

Like other sources, Burgess & Pedersen suggest that the Semi-Tarrasch may enjoy some revival in the future, and while much of the "theory" is fairly straightforward, I wonder if some study of the Grunfeld might be useful in injecting some life into the Semi-Tarrasch?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 430
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #25 - 08/31/06 at 08:28:08
Post Tools
Hello,

Also found some information on 6e4 line at
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/summer05/stoyko-lasker-3.htm

and in Yermolinsky's "Road to chess improvement". Both of these support current orthodox view that opening is difficult for black. Don't know of any book that specialises in this opening.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dji
Full Member
***
Offline


Just a Spirit in this
material World

Posts: 169
Joined: 07/16/06
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #24 - 08/30/06 at 21:19:06
Post Tools
In his book 'according to kramnik 5 (chapter 11) Khalifman give 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 Na5 16.Bd3 and now on 16...Qe7 17.de6!? fe6 18.Bb5 +=
   Is it all clear?
  Just one exemple(maybe a bad one but...??) 18...Rc5 19.Qd7 Rf7 20.a4 a6 21.Qe7 Re7 22.Bf1 h6 23.Rb1 Nc4  24.Rb4 Rec7 25.Nd4 a5 26.Rbb1 kF7 27.Nb5 Rd7 28.Rbd1 Nd2 23.f3 Bc6 30.Be2 Kf6 with conterplay .
Of course nothing is forced but I just want to know  any opinion after the move 18th!
  

Eternity it's very long especially towards the end!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #23 - 08/11/06 at 15:21:20
Post Tools
Thanks, Smyslov_Fan.  It seems as though I already have the critical literature.  I wasn't sure if there were chapters on the Semi-Tarrasch in various QGD books, but I'll stick to the Khalifman book and my database...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #22 - 08/10/06 at 20:32:34
Post Tools
Paul Keres wrote an excellent article on the Semi-Tarrasch that can be found in Power Chess.  Also, Spassky's notes to his famous win against Petrosian and the follow-up game between Spassky and Fischer would be excellent starting points.

These are very dated sources, but they have excellent theoretical content that is useful even today.  Of course, there are more recent analyses, but I'm not sure that an entire book on the Semi-Tarrasch would sell.  I've played both sides of it and wouldn't buy a book just on that one opening.

Addendum:  Kasparov gives detailed notes in several games in My Great Predecessors

vol 2
vol 3: Games 46, 117, 119, 120
vol 4: Games 32 and 62

Also, Khalifman covers the "Improved Tarrasch" in Opening for White According to Kramnik vol 5 chapter 10.

As is usual, I found only one game in the chapter, Kramnik-van Wely 1988, which was played by Kramnik.

Also as usual, while Khalifman gives many game stems, the theoretically most important game is one found in ECO:  Spassky-Tigran Petrosian (m/5) 1969 and quotes Bondarevsky and Boleslavsky for their evaluations.

I hope these citations help.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #21 - 08/07/06 at 23:58:32
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 05/15/06 at 17:58:54:
What is the current status of the Semi-Tarrasch?  I keep hearing references to it being "much maligned," etc., but with little suggestion that it is in trouble.  It's always struck me as being very solid.  Does Black just get little chance to play for a win?  Do any of the recent QGD books offer much in the way of analysis here?  


I wonder if I might return to one aspect of the original post not discussed here.  While the theory of the Semi-Tarrasch is fairly clearcut and frequently serves as a vehicle for arriving at specific middlegame positions (a la IQP, which can be reached from a number of openings), where might I find the most current discussion of the Semi-Tarrasch in the existing chess literature.  Is there a good book on the QGD that provides good theoretical and explanatory coverage?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #20 - 06/10/06 at 14:56:42
Post Tools
micawber: I was probably being a little severe with my language and referring to database statistics than the objective nature of the position.  However, I just don't trust Black's game after 15 ... exd5.  See, for example:

[Event "ASPCC corr"]
[Site "USA"]
[Date "1998.??.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Knudsen,John C"]
[Black "Erkel,Albert A"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D41"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 exd5 16.Bxd5 Qc7 17.Qg5 h6 18.Qh5 Nb4 19.Bb3 Nc6 20.Nh4 Na5 21.Nf5 Nxb3 22.axb3 Kh7 23.Rd6 f6 24.Nxh6 Rce8 25.Rxf6 Rxf6 26.Ng4+ Rh6 27.Qxe8 Qc3 28.Rf1 Rg6 29.Ne5 Rg5 30.Nf7 Rc5 31.h4 Bc6 32.Qh8+ 1-0

I like your analysis, but I wonder about  15 ... exd5 16 Bxd5 Qc7 17 Qg5 h6 18 Qh5 Nb4 19 Bb3 Qc5 20 Ne5.  My sense is that White's pieces are on better squares than Black's...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #19 - 06/10/06 at 07:03:48
Post Tools
@hgman
Thx for the games. Playing 15...Na5 in combination with Qe7 looks quite solid.



1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 exd 16.Bxd5 Qc7

First of all I might add that I overlooked your suggestion 17.Qg5. This seems to indicate that
I preferr  16....Qe7 over 16....Qc7.

Still I think black is not as bad after 16...Qc7 as you indicated:


17.Qg5! (an improvement on the move played by Nogeiras)
17...... , h6
18.Qh5         (end of the analysis by HgMan, white is better, but the assessment "desperate" is
                   to pessemistic ; I think Tal of all people would have seen this when playing Qc7
                   .....and evaluated that he could defend the position)
18......, Nb4
19.Nh4          Other moves don't seem better
                   19.Bxb7?!, Qxb7 20.Nh4,Nc2 21.Re2,Nd4! =
                   19.Bb3! (now black must be alert to a possible king side attack after e5-e6)
                      19.......  Qc5 20. e5,Bd5 and white's advantage is not very large
19......,Nxd5   
20.exd5,Rfe8
21.Nf5           White can achieve a sliqhtly better endgame after 21...Rxe1
                   22.Rxe1,Nxd5 23.Nxh6+,gxh 24.Qxd5,Qe7! but black should be able to draw
                   whithout too many problems
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #18 - 06/09/06 at 21:15:02
Post Tools
Quote:
@john simmons, @john cox;

I think black is still OK in the semi-Tarrasch with e4
I noted that Tal (who was on the receiving end in the cited game Polugajevsky-Tal 1969, in a later game followed  Spassky-Petrosjan 1969 till move 16. There he improved and reached a reasonable position against Nogeiras (Brussels, 1988).

1.d4,Nf6 2.c4,e6 3.Nc3,d5 4.Nf3,c5 5.cxd,Nxd 6.e4,Nxc3 7.bxc, cxd 8.exd,Bb4+ 9.Bd2,Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2,0-0
11.Bc4,Nc6 12.0-0,b6 13,Rad1,Bb7 14.Rfe1,Rc8
15.d5!?,
15.......exd5  (15....Na5 led to Polugajevsky-Tal)
16.Bxd5,       (16.exd,Na5 17.Bf1,Qd6 18.Ng5,Qh6 doesnt give white very much)
16.......,Qc7!   (16....Na5 17.Qf4!,Qc7 18.Qf5! got black in trouble in Spassky-Petrosjan)
                    (an alternative might be 16...Qe7 17.Qf4,Rc7 unclear)
17.e5  , Ne7
(Nogeiras-Tal, Brussels 1988)



17 Qg5 h6 18 Qh5 with Nh4 to follow looks pretty desperate for Black.

I think I prefer Golod's approach.  Preserving the tension in the center after 15 d5 deserves some attention:

[Event "ISR-chT"]
[Site "Israel"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[White "Tyomkin,Dimitri"]
[Black "Golod,Vitali"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 Na5 16.Bd3 Qe7 17.Qf4 Rfd8 18.Bb1 Nc4 19.Nd4 e5 20.Nf5 Qf6 21.Qg3  1/2

[Event "Internet Section 11B g/8'+2""]
[Site "Dos Hermanas"]
[Date "2004.03.11"]
[White "Gozzoli,Yannick"]
[Black "Golod,Vitali"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 Na5 16.Bd3 Qe7 17.Qf4 Rfd8 18.Rd2 h6 19.h3 Rc3 20.Red1 Rc5 21.dxe6 Qxe6 22.e5 Bxf3 23.Qxf3 Re8 24.Qe4 g6 25.f4 Nc4 26.Bxc4 Rxc4 27.Qf3 Qf5 28.Rd4 Rxd4 29.Rxd4 Qb1+ 30.Qd1 Qxd1+ 31.Rxd1 g5 32.g3 gxf4 33.gxf4 f6 34.exf6  1/2

[Event "EU-Cup 21st"]
[Site "Saint Vincent"]
[Date "2005.09.18"]
[White "Komarov,Dimitri"]
[Black "Golod,Vitali"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 c5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.e4 Nxc3 7.bxc3 cxd4 8.cxd4 Bb4+ 9.Bd2 Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2 0-0 11.Bc4 Nc6 12.0-0 b6 13.Rad1 Bb7 14.Rfe1 Rc8 15.d5 Na5 16.Bd3 Qe7 17.Qf4 Rfd8 18.h4 h6 19.Nd4  1/2


  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #17 - 06/08/06 at 07:56:46
Post Tools
I agree Semi-Tarrasch is still a viable option - some players may fail to treat it with the respect it deserves, which is a bonus too  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #16 - 06/07/06 at 20:34:56
Post Tools
@john simmons, @john cox;

I think black is still OK in the semi-Tarrasch with e4
I noted that Tal (who was on the receiving end in the cited game Polugajevsky-Tal 1969, in a later game followed  Spassky-Petrosjan 1969 till move 16. There he improved and reached a reasonable position against Nogeiras (Brussels, 1988).

1.d4,Nf6 2.c4,e6 3.Nc3,d5 4.Nf3,c5 5.cxd,Nxd 6.e4,Nxc3 7.bxc, cxd 8.exd,Bb4+ 9.Bd2,Bxd2+ 10.Qxd2,0-0
11.Bc4,Nc6 12.0-0,b6 13,Rad1,Bb7 14.Rfe1,Rc8
15.d5!?,
15.......exd5  (15....Na5 led to Polugajevsky-Tal)
16.Bxd5,       (16.exd,Na5 17.Bf1,Qd6 18.Ng5,Qh6 doesnt give white very much)
16.......,Qc7!   (16....Na5 17.Qf4!,Qc7 18.Qf5! got black in trouble in Spassky-Petrosjan)
                    (an alternative might be 16...Qe7 17.Qf4,Rc7 unclear)
17.e5  , Ne7
(Nogeiras-Tal, Brussels 1988)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
lnn2
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1504
Location: nc
Joined: 09/22/04
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #15 - 06/07/06 at 13:52:51
Post Tools
there's some useful information on 6. e3 in this old semi-tarrasch thread:
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1111573553/3#3

perhaps we shouldn't be creating so many new threads, and use older ones if possible for the sake of continuity. There're several games provided earlier in this thread in favour for the White cause...i think the onus is on black players to try and improve on the cited games.  Undecided
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2916
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #14 - 06/07/06 at 11:53:46
Post Tools
Forget Ragozins and Manhattans, Barcadi Breezers and what have you. What about the semi-Tarrasch? Like HGMan I´d be interested in creating a revival of this.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #13 - 05/24/06 at 17:14:15
Post Tools
Incidentally, we're all massively off topic  Lips Sealed
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo